Ep. 3: Podcast Basics: The Flow of the Show
In this episode of The Studio Podcast, Ian Levitt (Studio Americana) and Jenna Redfield (Twin Cities Collective) talk through how to create a good episode from beginning to end. They discuss the value of outlines (or not), pre-recorded elements such as intros/outros, editing, and how to make sure every recording ends up as an appealing episode to your listeners.
Ian Levitt 0:00
Hi, I'm Ian Levitt, and this is the studio podcast.
All right, and here we are for Episode Three of the studio podcast. This has been a really fun series to do. And, again, I mean love. It was studio Americana, our marketing director Jenna Redfield with us also with the Twin Cities Collective. Thanks for coming back with another week of this, Jenna.
Jenna Redfield 0:31
Yeah, I'm excited to talk more about podcasting.
Ian Levitt 0:33
And I do want to mention, at the very start of this that these first four episodes, we have been partnering with the reserve to kind of get a basic idea of podcasting in that first episode was, what do you need to think about before you even move forward with anything? Last week, we talked more about? What are some of the technical things you're going to need to deal with? That was Episode Two, I strongly recommend checking both of those out if you have any questions about that. And today, we're going to be talking about the flow of the show. So the structure of your episode, how to kind of get things ready so that when you are in that recording session, you're you're making the most of it, and you feel comfortable, it's really important to actually I would say, Jenna, to feel comfortable going in, because you're just gonna have a better episode.
Jenna Redfield 1:17
Totally, I think having a little bit of preparation, especially if you are interviewing someone, or if you drink some water beforehand. So your voice is sounding good. There's a ton of different tricks to kind of make the episode go Well,
Ian Levitt 1:30
yeah, exactly. And, you know, we are today again, we're going to be talking about the structure of it. But I wanted to start out considering we are here with the reserve, I wanted to talk for a moment, do a little test here. Anybody that sees us right now on video sees that I have two microphones in front of me, instead of one, I also have my laptop in front of me because I wanted to give kind of an idea of what the different sound qualities you can have. Even though we're all remote, and we're trying to do things the best we can, amid this pandemic, it doesn't mean that you have to have poor audio. And one of the great things is we've partnered with the reserve as they have our podcast recording kids on site. So if you book with book a session with them, you get an hour in an exclusive hour in one of their rooms along with our podcasting kids. And you can have up to two people using it at the same time. Now, a lot of people have said now how do I how do I tell the difference between these and that is why I have three microphones in front of me right now. So for the people watching and listening right now, you're not going to get the full effect, you're gonna actually have to listen to the podcast to hear the final version of this. But what I want to show you right here, and this is the microphone that I'm always using for our podcast, this is an sc 2200. I mean, it's just, it's a really great microphone, it's overkill for doing what what podcasting is, I have our own studio setup here. So obviously, I'm using the best one that I can. But I will say that if you are using a podcast recording kit, you might not notice that much of a difference in the final version, because this microphone is coming straight off the podcast recording kit, it's gonna sound like you're inside a studio, kind of wherever you are with this microphone. So I wanted people to get kind of an idea of what that sounds like. Now to compare that to what a lot of people are doing on zoom, I am going to very quickly mute myself. There we go. So this is what you're going to sound like in a lot of cases. I mean, this is the sound we expect out of a zoom call, right? This is what you're going to hear with most zoom calls, which if you have a decent connection, if you're in a somewhat soundproof area can be perfectly acceptable, it's clear, you can hear what everybody is saying. And a lot of our clients even do one person on a kit, another person over zoom, but I think even having one person on that good mic can make it sound like much more of a studio recording. Now I want to add, in comparison, this is what it's gonna sound like if you're recording locally on your computer, as opposed to recording directly over zoom. And this just for example is what happens with a number of our clients who record directly into their laptop, but then send us that recording as opposed to using the one over zoom. So just wanted to start out with a little bit of that you have a lot of options when it comes to podcasting. And it's really kind of unlimited. But in general there are there are ways you can do this without it sounding like it's the zoom call that you have for all the meetings you have all day. So just kind of an aside as we get going with this. But today in episode three are we are talking about the structure of the show and and as I mentioned earlier, I think one of the most important things about the structure of the show is making sure that you and your guests are comfortable because the sound quality matters but having a good conversation, having positive interaction. Having something that a listener wants to hear is the most important part of this. And I think having some pre created structure for your show gives you that calmness gives you that confidence going into an episode. So Jenna, I want to turn it over to you for a minute because you've been doing it podcasts. You've been hosting podcasts for a solid three years right now, what are some of the first things that you think of deal with when you're preparing for that interview for that actual recording of an episode?
Jenna Redfield 5:12
Yeah. So one of the things, first of all is, you know, finding the guests that you want, I think that's a huge step is if you are interviewing someone, so this is really talking about interview specifically, if I'm just doing episode by myself, I'll have like a really long outline of what I want to talk about. But if I'm interviewing someone, I think about who do I want? What topic? Haven't I covered? You know, what do I really what questions do I really want to ask them and kind of stay on that track, some people send their guests the questions ahead of time, so they're prepared, some people have a full transcript, there's a ton of different ways to do it, I usually just like to have a list in my head of questions I want to ask and kind of a direction to go. And just let them know a little bit before the call, like, this is kind of what I want to talk about, I kind of briefed them as I go through the episode. And then obviously, we kind of just I just let it flow. That's just how my podcast is some people a little bit more structured. But that's just kind of how I do it, I obviously have a full system of how to get their information, which we can talk about in a little bit. But that's really how I prepare my guests for the interview.
Ian Levitt 6:14
So you mentioned and you're right, some people will send questions in advance, some people will send all of them, some people will just send a handful. Talk a little bit about your process and why, why that isn't the structure you like to go with.
Jenna Redfield 6:27
I like to keep it where people aren't super prepared. Like I like I like it, where it feels like I'm actually just asking them like I want to know the answer. And they are giving me their most authentic in the moment response. And that's kind of what conversations are. I'm not preparing a conversation. I'm just having one. And so for me originally, my podcast was called conversations with creatives. And so that was originally My plan was to just have conversations with people. But you know, and I just didn't want it to sound like an interview, I wanted it to feel like an actual conversation. And there are different types of podcasts out there. I just that's how I prefer to do mine.
Ian Levitt 7:04
Yeah, absolutely. And I think on the flip side is something you mentioned for a moment there, which is, I think you called it a transcription or is essentially people. And I've seen this before in radio, and podcasting is people will script out an entire episode. And I think, you know, that can work if it is delivered very well. But I think you're actually adding a layer of difficulty to that. Because the moment you get off script, then what do you do? Or does it sound like you're reading the whole time are you going to be rigid, and just continue on with that conversation. And that's one of the one of the main reasons, that's not my favorite way to do it. Because I think, to what you're saying, as well, there has to be a natural flow to the show, you have to and this is one of the top tips I give people, you have to listen to the answers that your guests are giving. Because even if there's a direction that your show that you want your show to go, you if you keep it to that rigid way, then there's no organic conversation occurring, you're not going to get, you're not going to pivot off of a really interesting response. And I assume if you're interviewing someone, there's something interesting that you're interviewing them about. And if you don't give that space, to let them, you know, let the conversation kind of veer off into a different direction, then you know, it, I think you're just kind of putting yourself in a smaller box in that way. Now, I I personally prefer the middle of both of these, I like to have a structured outline for how the episode is gonna go, there's certain points, I want to make sure we hit maybe there's even certain order of those points that I want to hit. But just having bullet points allows us to continue a conversation to go off in a different direction. But then for me to feel like I can bring it back to a certain spot if need be and kind of get us back, quote unquote, on track. But there's different ways you can do this. And Jenna, you and I have talked many times about how this is our opinion. And there's many different ways you can podcast. But I think those are kind of the challenges now, I would say with no outline, at least for the guest. Do you ever run into people feeling extra nervous because of that?
Jenna Redfield 9:08
I'm like, I've actually had a few people ask me for the questions in advance that has happened before. So I am very willing to do that. I would say it depends on if it's the person's first podcast or a hundredth to a lot of times the people their first podcast when they come on my podcast, sometimes they've been doing it for years. So it really depends on the guest, I think and it just depends on your relationship with them also, because a lot of times I'm interviewing strangers, people I've never met before. So it takes even a few minutes. Just just kind of get a rapport with them and just kind of figure out what they're like, because sometimes they're very different than what you expect. So I do think that also podcasts tend to flow better. If you know the person you have some insider information about then you have a story to tell. So that is something to think about too is you know how well do you know your guests? Right,
Ian Levitt 9:52
right. No, that's a really good point. And in fact, it makes me think about what do you do because there's times, for most people that they're interviewing somebody they don't know, they may know a lot about them. The topic is very interesting to them. What have you found works better? When you're interviewing someone that you don't know? I mean, I, I will say, to answer the that same question on a very small level is, if it's awkward in the beginning, having the ability to kind of edit some of that out and clean it up is really helpful. What are some tricks you've learned to make that work?
Jenna Redfield 10:25
I mean, I'm still learning. But I think one of the things is knowing that the first like 1015 minutes is just gonna be kind of a struggle, just knowing that eventually, you'll find your way. I think that's the thing that a lot of my interviews happen is a lot of the good stuff comes in the second half. So because we've been talking about all these things, and we can kind of go deeper as the podcast goes, I think that's what I've learned is that you should never stop listening to a podcast halfway, because usually, the second half gets really good. Because I don't know, that's just me, I just find that the second half of podcasts tend to go a little bit deeper. It depends on how long the episode is, obviously, like, some of my episodes are 25 minutes, some of them are 15 minutes, it depends on how much how interesting the conversation is, sometimes I stop it, because I'm like, I have nothing else to ask. But then there's some episodes where I just want to talk forever, because I know this person really well. And I just have tons of things in common or whatever. So I think really just knowing the audience, knowing the person and just kind of making those decisions quickly in your head, that's a skill a lot of podcast hosts have to figure out is how to get people to stop talking if they are just like taking up too much time. I know that's an issue too. It's a
Ian Levitt 11:35
life question right there. I don't even know if that's podcast specific. That's just something you got to deal with in life. No, no, I that's really good. And I, I would say, especially if you're comfortable editing or if you have an editor, you know, those first, if you do have that experience where the first 15 minutes are just kind of rough, you know, be okay with cutting some stuff out. I'm a big believer in that. And not necessarily that you have to cut everything out. But I think, you know, if it's awkward, if it's makes the guests look bad, or makes you look bad, or just doesn't really add anything to the conversation, just just cut it, it's okay. It's perfectly fine.
Jenna Redfield 12:12
Yeah, and I think well, so Elizabeth asked any pointers, again, someone to stop talking, I think one of the things you can do is even just stop the interview and just say, hey, like, we're gonna go this direction or something? I don't know. I don't know, Ian, what's your What's your opinion, I don't really, I guess it doesn't happen to me that often where they just won't stop talking. But sometimes they can talk kind of fast, or they are getting off track that's happened to me before. So I think just bringing it back, when there's a moment where you can kind of jump in and say, Oh, that's a great point, lets you know, and then just sort of transition transitions are hard. Sometimes
Ian Levitt 12:45
they are. And again, I go back to editing, when you're, you know, when you're sitting there and post, you can make those transitions way smoother. And you can even take a pause in real time and say, Okay, we're gonna transition here, let me try that again. And then go right back into it, the final version, you'll never know anything like that happen? I think that's a great question. How do you get someone to stop talking? That's what's that, I think you kind of gotta, at least in whatever stream of thought they're in, you might have to let them go. And then just chop it at the end if they've gone too long. But they've provided some substance in that answer, it might be down to, hey, we're going to cut the last minute 30 out of that. And you may not have to tell them that you just kind of do that in post. And then at least the listener doesn't deal with it. I don't know how to stop the in real time from dealing with it. But I think what you said Jenna is right is, you know, especially if you have an outline, you can kind of bring it back to maybe take a line or two of what they said, to transition that into the next thing that you're talking about. But you know, I mean, we're all people, we all deal. We have different things about our character, and some people talk fast. Some people talk a lot. I'm both of those. So I don't know how people deal with me. That would be that'd be probably a question I don't want to know the answer to.
Jenna Redfield 14:04
I think another thing is to if you know the person or if you've heard them on other podcasts, you'll kind of know this in advance if they're going to talk a lot just based off of their personality, I haven't had to be a super big issue. So it's not something I've dealt with too much. So let's transition Hey into, into another topic. Let's talk a little bit about like, So you mentioned in in our notes, talking a little bit about pre recorded intros and outros, because that's something that, you know, it's part of the flow of the show is, you know, do you start with a clip do you start with, you know, an intro outro that kind of thing.
Ian Levitt 14:38
Right, right. And, and I think this is really important, again, for being comfortable in the real time recording. If you already have a pre recorded intro to the show. Don't make it very long. I strongly recommend 30 seconds or under if possible. You know, even 10 seconds is a fine intro to a show because you don't want people to like, well, a you don't want people to leave the podcast. And you don't want people unnecessarily skip too far ahead, because then they're going to miss some of the content of the show. But having that pre recorded intro can, you know, is a great way with the music, if you have a highlight clip to kind of get the show started for the audience, a thing I have strongly recommended with a lot of people is your recording your intro, I know this is gonna sound crazy after the episode is over. Right. And here's the two reasons I think that's really important. Number one, is it takes the pressure off of having to record that intro right in front of your guests having to maybe redo it or stumble through it, it's not going to give you that confidence going in, if you had kind of a rough intro, so just skip it and go right to the body of the conversation that you're going to have. And that's the other reason I think it's a good, it's a good idea is because after you've had that conversation, you know the content that you're going to be discussing. So you can now forge a much more specific intro to that show. And tees, things are going to be talked about, and I think just have a more substantive intro to it. And you can do that after the guest is off and you don't deal with it. Now. I do have one client who always reads the intro in front of their guests, because they want to make sure that the guest is okay. With the intro that they made. I think that's a very valid reason to do it. So here we go back to you know, you can do it any which way you want. There's no specific way that you have to or don't have to do a podcast. But I think having that pre recorded intro, whether it's a generic one that's on every episode, or whether it's a specific one to that episode. Having those recorded at a different time than the actual interview itself, I think can be really helpful on the outro side. And I want to get your thoughts on this to Jenna, on the on the exit side of the episode. Always point people to where they can find you. And here's why they've listened to the whole episode, they have listened to the entire thing. And you are really wasting an opportunity if you're not giving them a call to action at the very end. So whether that's go to our website, you know, give us a review. I think that's a really common one, give us a review or five stars on Apple, whatever it happens to be. give people something to do after they've completed that episode. Because if they've listened the whole way through, you've got a solid AUDIENCE MEMBER there. So what are your What are your thoughts on these elements? Jenna?
Jenna Redfield 17:21
Yeah, I think that's I think everything you said is true. I need to start doing intros. I it's like I Elba always thinking, Oh, how can I make my podcast better? I think that's true. I've heard that a lot from a lot of episodes, because they basically say, we talked about this. So you know that they kind of have recorded it after the episode has already been recorded. So that is something I hear a lot in other podcasts. And I do think having that pre recorded intro outro I think it is good to keep it short. You're right, Ian. And I do think having that outro call to action is for sure. The right way to do things. I wouldn't say it any other way. So
Ian Levitt 17:57
I agree with you. I appreciate his points. I appreciate that. And I will set when I talk about the intro being short, I guess I'm thinking more of if it's a generic intro, like if it's what people are going to hear, every time they start the show is the same generic intro,
Jenna Redfield 18:09
I have the same one.
Ian Levitt 18:10
Yeah, that's the one to keep short. But you know, if you if you need a minute or a minute 30 to give a specific introduction to that show, as long as you're giving good detail. And it's engaging, great, but that the pre recorded one that that either your your loyal listeners are going to hear over and over again, or a new listener is just going to start out with, you know, keeping it short is going to keep people on the line. So should we go to highlight clips. This is this is something we discussed a little bit in some of the previous episodes. Again, you can download the show at the studio podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts, Episode One was on what to think about before going into it. Episode Two is more on the technical side getting ready to do your podcast that way. And again, if you have any questions on any of that, you can always send us an email to info at Studio americana.com. And we will answer your questions here on the podcast as well. But in the last year, probably even more now we have been recommending to certain clients that putting a highlight clip at the front of the show is a really good way to tease people. We talked about having a short generic intro. This is kind of for the same reason it's to get people really engaged in it right away. And I think it you know, it doesn't take that much. That sounds condescending. As I say it doesn't take that much effort if you do have to listen to the show and find a good spot. But if your guest has a great line two or three that really encapsulate the show, or is just a really interesting quote, take that out of the app, not take it out, copy it and put it on the very front of your episode, whether that's before the music or during the music just as a way to like tease people on what's going to come in that episode without you having to say here's what's coming up in that episode. I did not invent this idea. I mean, this has been done on podcasts like this American life for a very long Long time. But now, one of the cooler things about podcasting is anybody can do it. So why not take some of the cooler tools that we see out there? I don't think that's something you're currently doing on the show gender. But what have you thought about in that way?
Jenna Redfield 20:12
Yeah, I think well, what I've been doing and for both this podcast and my own is finding a clip to share on social. So that's something that I have gone back and look through our transcripts, which I know Ian provides all of his clients transcripts so that you can actually look through and read back your episode, which is there's ton of reasons why you should use transcripts. And maybe we could talk about that, I don't know, maybe later or something. But basically, I use the transcripts to go through and be like, where, at what point in episode because sometimes I don't always like to listen to it back. Sometimes I'm just looking for keywords, or I remember we talked about this one thing at what minute was that? And then how can I bring that to the front or use it as almost a promotional clip, I try to get about 30 seconds for my social media. But it's also probably for the highlight clip, the length of time you want maybe at the beginning of the episode is maybe about 30 seconds to a minute. And then that's something you can put at the front. It's something I should do. And it's something again, like I, you know, for me, it's limited time. So I don't always have all the time to do that. But I think having some kind of a tease somehow to get people interested, because that's the one thing about podcasts. There's a lot of podcasts out there, how do you get someone interested in yours. So I think, you know, making that stand out, getting people interested. And people do this, not just on podcasts, but also on YouTube, and other platforms, whether they put the the meat of the element at the beginning and get people hooked. So it's kind of given that hook and giving people that information.
Ian Levitt 21:35
Yeah, and I think it just has, like you say that you're competing for a lot of other ears out there. And I should be saying this in every single episode is that the number one thing that is going to make your podcast a success is can is knowing who your audience is, and connecting with that audience. So next week, we'll talk about how to market to that audience and all the marketing aspects of it. But really, inside the podcast, when people are listening, if the content you're giving them is connecting to what they're looking for, which I think is another reason why I've seen the, the more specific of a topic your podcast is, the quicker it catches fire, because you're just connecting with that audience. But giving them something like that highlight clip at the very front is going to let them know immediately. Okay, here's the vibe of the show. Here's, you know, probably what a little bit about what the show is going to be about. And it's just if it's an engaging clip, they're just gonna keep listening, because they want to they've tuned in already. Give them good reasons to stay there.
Jenna Redfield 22:31
Yeah, for sure. I think also, just making sure that that everything is is the same as what the title is, that was the other thing I wanted to mention is naming your episode, because that's also going to get people to listen or not, because, you know, I go through my own Spotify podcasts of the week, and I'm subscribed to a bunch of them. And I'm not gonna listen to all of them. I don't have time for that which one captures my attention, right, which is the one that I need right now. Or I can even use the search in Spotify. And I've done this before where I listen to a random episode of someone's podcast I've never heard of because I really liked the topic. Or maybe, you know, or maybe I know the person on that episode. And there's a ton of reasons why people listen to certain episodes. And I know, there's a couple people I know that listened to every single one of mine, which kind of like I'm like, so flattered by that. But I know there's people that just listen every once in a while because the episode caught their eye or attention. So I do think that's also an important step to get people even to listen, because that's actually the hardest part is getting people because once you're right, once they started listening, usually people keep listening, if they don't get super offended, or they just get bored. Like I think it's just keeping people's attention.
Ian Levitt 23:39
Yeah, absolutely. And, and you have to, you know, I think if you publish every week that I know, not everybody can publish every week. That's it. That's I mean, that could be a high demand, what whether you're, you know, recording a bunch at once, and then scheduling them out over a week or doing it every week. But if you can get to that regular schedule, then when your podcast pops up as a new one each week, you know, you're not competing with as many new podcasts that are coming up. But, you know, like you say, if people are listening to enter into a podcast, and then they get to a point where, well, I don't know, this, this part was kind of boring, or it's just not the same thing that it was, you do have that possibility that people are going to start, you know, looking for other options. There's, I don't remember the latest statistic, but it's many millions that currently exists. So I think that's another reason why the more specific of a topic that you're on, the better of a chance you have to really get some traction on it. Because if you're reaching and the cool thing about podcasting versus broadcasting is every person that's listening to your podcast is going to be somewhat of an audience and probably a more specific audience than, you know, traditional broadcast radio. And that has some great positives because immediately you're connecting with the people that you want to so I think all the things we're talking about structuring the show are the ways that you're going to retain those people once they find who you are. And again, listen next week as we do our fourth episode on marketing to find those people and to get them to your podcast. But I think it's it's most important that when they get there, you're they're getting something that they want and you're providing what it is that a listener wants. We're kind of running up on the edge of this here, Jenna, but I did. You mentioned something before the show that I wanted to make sure we got in, which was, you actually have waivers that you have your podcast guests and talk a little bit about that. And why you do that? Yeah.
Jenna Redfield 25:27
So when I first started my podcast, I did not know how to book people how to get people on. So I've come up with a few different systems, depending on what I've used. I know Ian, use acuity scheduling, I've used dubsado. I also now I've kind of switched to kartra, because that's my new website platform. But basically, when people schedule, they have like a list of times that are available, they book a slot. And then what I have is a questionnaire for them. So I have them fill out their name, their website, their social media links, and then I also add a headshot because I create a graphic for each episode, as well as a release form or a waiver. Because you know, when you are putting something out there that has their voice, their maybe their face, you want to make sure that they're okay with it, it just kind of a risk release to make sure that you don't get in trouble for anything. Another thing also to think about is making sure that none of the information that people share is classified. I've actually had to edit podcasts because the guests has shared something that is either a trade secret or something that their company wouldn't allow them to share. So people have actually responded after we record and said, Hey, can you cut out this part? That's happened to me a couple times. So that is something else to think about. But yeah, having some sort of forum for your guests to fill, it is really helpful for them as well.
Ian Levitt 26:43
Okay, two things on that. One is I think that's a that's a very good thing for people to do. Do you think that's something we could have on our website? But oh, yeah, okay.
Jenna Redfield 26:53
We'll make a free download. We'll put
Ian Levitt 26:54
a page we'll put it in the show notes as well, once Yeah,
Jenna Redfield 26:57
sure to I think, I mean, honestly, it just has to say the basic things like it's a release form, it's like anything. Nowadays, social media has made it harder for people to be private. You know, if you're out in public, you basically are giving people the right to take photos of you. That's why Papa Razzi exists, I think you know, but when it comes to this kind of thing, you want to make sure that you have the control of making sure what the people say on your podcast is legal, and that they're not gonna get mad at you for something.
Ian Levitt 27:25
And I think if your guests knows that you have some editing skills, or you're connected to an editor, they might be more willing to have a, it might be more comfortable for them to have a casual conversation knowing that if something slips out, they can always get that cut out before it's going to be published. That's really important.
Jenna Redfield 27:40
I think it's important to say that beforehand to Yes, that's the beginning of episode. Yeah, I agree.
Ian Levitt 27:44
I agree. Well, I think we covered a lot of stuff here, Jenna. And, and as I kind of look back at where our podcasts have gone from, you know, think what you need to think about before you even move down any road to Okay, then what kind of technical things are you going to need to do? And now like, how do I make sure that the show I'm making is something that my audience wants to listen to, it doesn't matter what kind of podcast you're doing, these are all things that you're going to need to know. So next week, I'm excited because I'm going to do way less talking. And Jen is gonna be talking about how you market your podcasts incredibly important part, especially in the early stages when you're trying to, you know, make sure that all this time you're putting into shows somebody is actually listening to so very excited about that. In the meantime, you if you have any questions you can find, find us on social media, you can email info at Studio americana.com. We'll put any of those questions up on our next podcast and Otherwise, we'll see you next week. Thanks, Jenna.
Jenna Redfield 28:41
Yep, thanks.
Ian Levitt 28:49
Thanks for joining us on the studio podcast. If you'd like to learn more about how our team helps with podcasting, just go to Studio americana.com. And if you like this content, please take a few moments to review us wherever you listen to podcast. Thanks again and we'll talk to you next time.